Readers reply: The Moon Under Water – from where did George Orwell get the name for his perfect pub? | Life and style

What is the origin of the name of the Moon Under Water pub? George Orwell adopted it to describe it his “ideal of what a pub should be”but where did you get it? Mike Jones, by email

Send new questions to nq@theguardian.com.

Readers respond

I have a vague recollection that buried somewhere in Orwell’s correspondence is his answer to the same question, put to him some time after that essay on the perfect pub appeared – his answer was that he made up the name, wanting something he had never actually heard of a pub he calls and hopes to avoid people trying to figure out which one he’s describing (back in the days when there were still pubs on every other street corner). After all, nature imitates art. The big man would probably be quite amused by this. Petronius

In the National Portrait Gallery there is portrait of Sir Walter Raleigh by an unknown artist. The NPG description refers to depictions of Elizabeth I in the form of pearls forming a “sun in splendor”, a common heraldic device. In addition, the conservation revealed a “piece of rippling water under the crescent,” which is believed to refer to Elizabeth as the goddess Cynthia. Apparently this is also a reference to Raleigh’s poetry. Mitch Stone

There is a Lincolnshire folk tale called the Dead Moon (or Buried Moon) in which the moon is trapped in a pool in a bog:

They argued with each other until dawn how best to hurt her, and when they began to scatter for fear of the light, they buried the moon in the mud under the water of the swamp and weighed it down with a stone.

I doubt this is where Orwell got the name, but stories that play with the idea of ​​the moon reflecting in water, or the moon being underwater, existed long before his essay. rag sorting

I have no proof of this, but I always thought it was related to the Moonrakers tale. They were smugglers who were discovered by customs officials searching the village pond where they had hidden their contraband spirits. When asked what they were doing, they said they were trying to get this big cheese out of the water that was the reflection of the moon. The men thought themselves fools and left, leaving the smugglers to collect their loot. Mr. Cassandra

Let me guess…stumbling out of a northern pub down rough cobbled streets one moonlit night, after a heavy rain, the moon shone into a puddle he stepped over a little worse? A ubiquitous scene in many film noirs or a Raymond Chandler a novel or a film. Stehrisvilgil

Surely it just means something you can see but never reach. Aesop had a fable about a fox trying to retrieve cheese from a lake and drowning in the process. He had another one for a fox and a grape, so it was good for pub names. Mike345

Perhaps it was Orwell’s joke that traditional pubs would struggle. He was right. Stamfordman

Before moving to France I lived in Hitchin in Hertfordshire. When Mr. Blair lived in nearby Wallington, he cycled to buy roses from Woolworths. The inspiration for Animal Farm is the farm near his cottage. On one of my visits there, the owner of his home was in his front garden, so I asked if I could take a photo. She invited me to see the room where she was writing. He was married in the church there. I also lived near his home in Canonbury Square in London. There he wrote Animal Farm. Two nearby pubs where he drank met his criteria. Pamela Amboise

I don’t know the origin of the name, but one of Orwell’s stipulations was that the pub not have a radio, so no doubt he would have been delighted to see today’s ubiquitous television screens. (As an aside, a quick Google reveals that there are several distilleries offering Gin Victory for sale—some with obvious irony, others less so.) EddieChorepost